The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. Antique Double Barrel Shotgun: Identifying, Valuing, and Buying The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Home | Login | Register. I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. Any ideas as to date range? Project Upland. Comblain This printed Britte Frres We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. The Belgium Leige - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Bookmark Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. These firearms for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. Identification on a Belgian Liege musket, real or repro? Cachoir The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. that we have found on this subject. Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. Behr Jean jacques I have pictures If you need them. The second and third indicateit was proofed at Lige. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. It could be of relatively recent manufacture. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. Or any info? Sorry I can't be more helpful. 1860-1870. Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. Biography: Henri & Nicolas Pieper - Forgotten Weapons A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. Thanks! M855 Green Tip, Didn't find what you were looking for? A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. The gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. Double Take: Gorgeous Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns - Field & Stream Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide | Shotgun Forum Buy Belgium Shotguns For Sale At Auction | Invaluable in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. Original British Martini-Henry Rifle Extractor Mk IV From $34.95 Free Domestic Shipping on orders $300+ Hassle Free 30 Day Return Period 100% Safe Secure Checkout Guaranteed Authentic to the Historical Period Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted in a series of publications, The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). Belgian Liege gunmakers (G to K) - Volume 3 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. Miscellaneous Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Classic Guns: Great American Double-Barrel Shotguns - Gun - Gun Digest If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Help to identify old belgium shotgun please | Shotgun Forum Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many Ancion Jacques & Cie B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. Antique Pistols and Handguns for Sale | Collectors Firearms into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. Dallas, Donald. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Do you have any information on them? Thank you Jerry. Just as many muzzleloaders were converted to breechloadersthink of the Springfield trapdoor action or the British Snidermany pin-fires were converted to center-fire guns. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. Does it reach the touch hole? weapon. Shotgun Manufacturers - Types of Shotguns for Auction at GunBroker.com To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. What about a lightning bolt with a star above? barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. firearms. carefully bound by threads. Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive Clment Charles Philibert Belgian Arms cie Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? and BELGIUM had a glut of old, obsolete flint lock and percussion gun parts left over from years past. European&other - Long Guns - Bolk Antiques Berleur Michel I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. Clment Walter There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Bernimolin & Cap Board Of U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. JavaScript is disabled. 4 0 obj Colot Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. The Modern Shotgun. Search. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. British gunmakers of the 21st century - The Field ('Manufacturer') Home > Product Catalog Shotguns made in Belgium category Firearms/ Small arms 731 Rifles 237 Shotguns 359 Pistols 134 Blank/Signal/Rubberball pistols 1 Black powder/Muzzleloader 2 Ammunition 3 Ammunition Components/Reloading 20 Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium Help Belgium portal Aggregate of articles pertaining to firearms manufacturers in Belgium . Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: Hi Gerard and everyone! The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. I had a gunsmith replace some springs and open the choke. Belgian Proof Marks Help Needed - The Snipe Hunting Forum Bouquin Ad For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. Consignment Sale Information. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. It was mandatory post-1924. The proof marks shown below will assist in determining nationality of manufacturers when no other markings are evident. 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. Gun Barrel Proof Marks. Bettonville - Fontaine Are Damascus-Barreled Shotguns Safe to Shoot? Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. Braekers Charles & Cie Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! Antique Shotguns - Percussion for sale - Guns International Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. GWO, good condition. are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Charlier Ch. Then emigrated to Belgium at the end of 1859. Coquilhat Aim The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. It is was built using a very thick Bernard Henri Eugne I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. Comblain Dieudonn Joseph Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Lewis Lobdell Hepburn ran his own gunshop in Colton, a small village .Click for more info Seller: gbdeer Area Code: 315 $2,600.00 ATTRACTIVE WESLEY RICHARDS 6-GAUGE PERCUSSION SINGLE BARREL SHOTGUN GI#: 102214961 Shooting Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture By Jim Harmer Updated on February 7, 2023 It's important to know where your firearms come from if you are a conscious consumer who wants to make sure your money is only going to places you support. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one cant get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one cant find the inspectors mark. Proof Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. Bernard Alphonse thanks for the help so far. (copy right L.R. Misc. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your There are a number of Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. Chaineux J. JavaScript is disabled. Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. It's complete. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). Email: Info@hlebooks.com Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. to share our findings by this means of communication. It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information Broqua & Scholberg Chartier Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. so that means it is for sure a 12 gauge? The wood does not look ancient so I am guessing in the 1970s or so. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Can you add any details? No maker's name at all. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . A "Greener" double? The Model 1889 Mauser: A Rifle That Saved Paris Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. 29 Classic Guns: Old Rifles, Collectible Shotguns, and - Field & Stream The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. The Baby Browning: A .25 ACP Pocket Pistol For Personal Protection This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. 254.541.2985 John Hille, john@jhille.com. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. Bonzon & Arents & Cie Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. Belgium - Shotguns Antique Gun List Antique Guns and Firearms including Antique Hand Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. Counet-Leboulle J. Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. L. L. Hepburn percussion combination rifle, .36 cal. Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). Search. Warnant Top Break Double Action Revolver - Revivaler Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. JavaScript is disabled. The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. He received his technical training in Soest and then in Warstein. Can be without star and ring. Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. These Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. and an eagles head. Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. Colard Louis - Counet Lonard Bernimolin CLEMENT, J. In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers' Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Closset J.M. late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . We have provided you In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof. Proof Marks or Many thanxPS:. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", Wish I could be more helpful! I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance withtwentieth centuryones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe. If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. Belgian Liege gunmakers One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. Christophe Henri this location now so you can return often. . Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Bertrand Antoine & Fils listed in alphabetical order. Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. I have got a 19th century belgian double barrel pin fire shoutgun with walnut stock(116cm). When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.

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